Comments on: Selling biking to the Dutch http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/ Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:00:15 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Dave http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/comment-page-1/#comment-290536 Dave Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:00:09 +0000 http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=180#comment-290536 I like several comments found in that guy's Amsterdam photo essay thingy.... First, his rant against sidewall generators being so incredibly inefficient and horrific (he makes them sound like they will cause you to barely be able to pedal). I currently use one of these, and I only notice a very slight difference in the effort I need to pedal with it engaged. His comments about how he can't believe anyone would ride a bike with a long skirt/dress on :) Also, "kid in the suicide position in front" (it's only suicide if you're going 30mph towards a brick wall). His speculations about what the folding bicycles are is pretty funny :) I also loved the comment from one of the commenters on the article who loved all the "after market" accessories people put on their bikes so they could ride in normal clothes :) I like several comments found in that guy’s Amsterdam photo essay thingy….

First, his rant against sidewall generators being so incredibly inefficient and horrific (he makes them sound like they will cause you to barely be able to pedal). I currently use one of these, and I only notice a very slight difference in the effort I need to pedal with it engaged.

His comments about how he can’t believe anyone would ride a bike with a long skirt/dress on :)

Also, “kid in the suicide position in front” (it’s only suicide if you’re going 30mph towards a brick wall).

His speculations about what the folding bicycles are is pretty funny :)

I also loved the comment from one of the commenters on the article who loved all the “after market” accessories people put on their bikes so they could ride in normal clothes :)

]]> By: Mike http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/comment-page-1/#comment-53787 Mike Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:05:35 +0000 http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=180#comment-53787 I too have thought about tying into that motorcycle lawn sign ("Motorcycles are everywhere!") campaign, but after riding in S. Vt. the weekend of Laconia Bike Week I;ve come to the realization that motorcyclists have more in common with drivers than with cyclists. 2 wheels are the only connecting trait - the speed, aggressive acceleration and traffic riding tactics, and the god awful noise all fall into car camp. And remember that most aren't all that efficient... I too have thought about tying into that motorcycle lawn sign (“Motorcycles are everywhere!”) campaign, but after riding in S. Vt. the weekend of Laconia Bike Week I;ve come to the realization that motorcyclists have more in common with drivers than with cyclists. 2 wheels are the only connecting trait – the speed, aggressive acceleration and traffic riding tactics, and the god awful noise all fall into car camp. And remember that most aren’t all that efficient…

]]> By: Tom Manseau http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/comment-page-1/#comment-53715 Tom Manseau Mon, 06 Aug 2007 09:04:58 +0000 http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=180#comment-53715 Heck, sell bikes to the Dutch? I want bikes to be sold as good general transport in the states! I want middle aged people to remember what it was like to "fly" like a 6 year old again. Biketopia doesn't yet exist, sorry folks! Having been nearly run over by a driver of the dreaded SUV in broad daylight more than once, I can vouch. Not even riding a bright yellow bike & wearing a yellow helmet & dayglow yellow jacket helped. Only my loud voice gets through to these folks. And in Maine where the "official" vehicle is the Ford F150, this can be a really bad day. Lesson: car drivers are dangerous and are NEVER cited for their recklessness. The real issue is extremely poor driver education when dealing with cyclists, motorcyclists, and other users of the roads. Anyone got suggestions on how to hook up with motorcyclists and lobby together more effectively? Just a thought as we share the road and have many of the same goals and issues. I've needed a couple of helmets, and gotten away with only a couple of scrapes, thank you Bell. One was for mountain biking, the other was because of a car (hood skating anyone?) But it's your head;) What will drive change? In the end, fuel and vehicle costs. Even with a decent income, cars are a skyrocketing expense. E-bikes are constantly improving. I've seen the looks on non-cyclists faces when they've ridden them. It's like they're 6 again! But the really dramatic change will be a viable, energy dense battery. Batteries are improving slowly. But when the range improves and charge times drop, electric vehicles will replace a large percentage of the internal combustion engine market. I just hope to see it. I hope to see solar chargers sold along w/ the e-vehicles too. Heck, sell bikes to the Dutch? I want bikes to be sold as good general transport in the states! I want middle aged people to remember what it was like to “fly” like a 6 year old again.
Biketopia doesn’t yet exist, sorry folks! Having been nearly run over by a driver of the dreaded SUV in broad daylight more than once, I can vouch. Not even riding a bright yellow bike & wearing a yellow helmet & dayglow yellow jacket helped. Only my loud voice gets through to these folks. And in Maine where the “official” vehicle is the Ford F150, this can be a really bad day. Lesson: car drivers are dangerous and are NEVER cited for their recklessness. The real issue is extremely poor driver education when dealing with cyclists, motorcyclists, and other users of the roads.
Anyone got suggestions on how to hook up with motorcyclists and lobby together more effectively? Just a thought as we share the road and have many of the same goals and issues.
I’ve needed a couple of helmets, and gotten away with only a couple of scrapes, thank you Bell. One was for mountain biking, the other was because of a car (hood skating anyone?) But it’s your head;)
What will drive change? In the end, fuel and vehicle costs. Even with a decent income, cars are a skyrocketing expense. E-bikes are constantly improving. I’ve seen the looks on non-cyclists faces when they’ve ridden them. It’s like they’re 6 again! But the really dramatic change will be a viable, energy dense battery. Batteries are improving slowly. But when the range improves and charge times drop, electric vehicles will replace a large percentage of the internal combustion engine market. I just hope to see it. I hope to see solar chargers sold along w/ the e-vehicles too.

]]> By: Bruce Wilson http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/comment-page-1/#comment-52202 Bruce Wilson Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:46:57 +0000 http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=180#comment-52202 http://www.frankmobility.com/duet.htm I wish that I had known about this while my late father was still alive. We could have had a great deal of fun with this. None of the social workers, physical therapists, visiting nurses, or other professionals we worked with mentioned that such a machine existed. I suspect that the Durable Medical Equipment people feel nervous about the bicycle aspect of the Duet, while the bike shops feel nervous about the medical aspect. The ideal solution would be if a DME company and a bike shop would come to some agreement by which the DME would take care of the insurance aspect (assuming that insurance would cover it while subcontracting the maintainance of the bicycle part to the bike shop.) http://www.frankmobility.com/duet.htm

I wish that I had known about this while my late father was still alive. We could have had a great deal of fun with this.

None of the social workers, physical therapists, visiting nurses, or other professionals we worked with mentioned that such a machine existed.

I suspect that the Durable Medical Equipment people feel nervous about the bicycle aspect of the Duet, while the bike shops feel nervous about the medical aspect.

The ideal solution would be if a DME company and a bike shop would come to some agreement by which the DME would take care of the insurance aspect (assuming that insurance would cover it while subcontracting the maintainance of the bicycle part to the bike shop.)

]]> By: Bruce A. Wilson http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/comment-page-1/#comment-51684 Bruce A. Wilson Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:54:39 +0000 http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=180#comment-51684 "Val Says: June 4th, 2007 at 8:20 pm Not meaning to poke the bear or anything, but this guy is a freind of mine: http://gregangelo.com/characte/hokum.html I think he could use a Stokemonkey." It gets him there and brings him Bach. “Val Says:

June 4th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Not meaning to poke the bear or anything, but this guy is a freind of mine: http://gregangelo.com/characte/hokum.html I think he could use a Stokemonkey.”

It gets him there and brings him Bach.

]]> By: Bodosan http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/comment-page-1/#comment-51679 Bodosan Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:48:03 +0000 http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=180#comment-51679 Tbird is right on the cyclist laws and also the vast number of cyclists creates a form of selfconfidence (sometimes a bit to much) when cycling through traffic. It is certainly true that there are poor cycle lanes and bad traffic situations for cyclists but there is a continuing action to signal bad lanes with the 'fietsersbond' (bicycle organisation), which in turn demands the authorities to do something about those lanes. Imo the mentioned video shows some quite easy biking (biker with umbrella). Sometimes cars park a little on the lane, but often official parkinglots are next to the lane (watch the striping carefully), so it's not strange to see parked cars next to a bicycle lane (cars have to watch out when opening doors!; there is NO doorzone). But I agree there is still a lot a cyclist can wish for, even a shining example has its dents. But in the way cycling is accepted and considered a normal form of transport the example stands. Neil thanks for your comment about the brakes. I'm sure they are drum brakes (trommel means drum). The roller brakes are a much later development. At this link the shimano roller brake is explained http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/technical_service/faq_s/city_and_comfort_bike/how_does_a_roller.html Tbird is right on the cyclist laws and also the vast number of cyclists creates a form of selfconfidence (sometimes a bit to much) when cycling through traffic. It is certainly true that there are poor cycle lanes and bad traffic situations for cyclists but there is a continuing action to signal bad lanes with the ‘fietsersbond’ (bicycle organisation), which in turn demands the authorities to do something about those lanes. Imo the mentioned video shows some quite easy biking (biker with umbrella). Sometimes cars park a little on the lane, but often official parkinglots are next to the lane (watch the striping carefully), so it’s not strange to see parked cars next to a bicycle lane (cars have to watch out when opening doors!; there is NO doorzone). But I agree there is still a lot a cyclist can wish for, even a shining example has its dents. But in the way cycling is accepted and considered a normal form of transport the example stands. Neil thanks for your comment about the brakes. I’m sure they are drum brakes (trommel means drum). The roller brakes are a much later development. At this link the shimano roller brake is explained http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/technical_service/faq_s/city_and_comfort_bike/how_does_a_roller.html

]]> By: Tbird http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/comment-page-1/#comment-51678 Tbird Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:23:48 +0000 http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=180#comment-51678 My experience in the NED was they have very strong Cyclist R.O.W. laws. I was told by my local bike shop in the Hague that almost no matter what has happened leading up to an accident between car and bike, it is always assumed the car was at fault, and therefore liable. Also, as a rule the Dutch seem to have an inherent ( or maybe it's learned ;)) awareness that there will be a bike coming along at any second, so look out (let op!) Your right, some bike lanes are similarly arranged as you would see in other less enlightened places. But it's how the drivers deal with bikes in those situations that really make your eyes open wide. When we first moved to the Hague my partner and I were out exploring the city via bike and came to a stop at a busy crossing. Being the well trained Americans that we are we stood patiently waiting for Car traffic to subside long enough for us to cross. We then watched in utter amazement as a little old lady casually coasted past us, and across the traffic not slowing one bit. Traffic immediately halted and she continued on unimpeded. Still it took a few weeks of cautious crossings to feel comfortable executing what we had witnessed. I think it has as much to do with educating the auto-centric folks about bike traffic, as it does building a better bike lane for safer travel, so to speak. Both are equally important. My experience in the NED was they have very strong Cyclist R.O.W. laws. I was told by my local bike shop in the Hague that almost no matter what has happened leading up to an accident between car and bike, it is always assumed the car was at fault, and therefore liable. Also, as a rule the Dutch seem to have an inherent ( or maybe it’s learned ;)) awareness that there will be a bike coming along at any second, so look out (let op!) Your right, some bike lanes are similarly arranged as you would see in other less enlightened places. But it’s how the drivers deal with bikes in those situations that really make your eyes open wide.

When we first moved to the Hague my partner and I were out exploring the city via bike and came to a stop at a busy crossing. Being the well trained Americans that we are we stood patiently waiting for Car traffic to subside long enough for us to cross. We then watched in utter amazement as a little old lady casually coasted past us, and across the traffic not slowing one bit. Traffic immediately halted and she continued on unimpeded. Still it took a few weeks of cautious crossings to feel comfortable executing what we had witnessed.
I think it has as much to do with educating the auto-centric folks about bike traffic, as it does building a better bike lane for safer travel, so to speak. Both are equally important.

]]> By: Neil http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/comment-page-1/#comment-51660 Neil Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:11:09 +0000 http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=180#comment-51660 doh - just after posting I found the URL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLLp1lhVlkY It shows some quite poor cycle lanes (in the door zone or even blocked by the parked cars). Cars cutting into the bike lane (presumably because of the tram line) and all sorts of chaos and nastiness that we expect from our less cycle-centric places but Amsterdam is always held up as a shining example. So is that video showing some unusually poor facilities. Or do you think the main safety factor is in numbers i.e. expectation of car drivers. doh – just after posting I found the URL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLLp1lhVlkY

It shows some quite poor cycle lanes (in the door zone or even blocked by the parked cars). Cars cutting into the bike lane (presumably because of the tram line) and all sorts of chaos and nastiness that we expect from our less cycle-centric places but Amsterdam is always held up as a shining example.

So is that video showing some unusually poor facilities. Or do you think the main safety factor is in numbers i.e. expectation of car drivers.

]]> By: Neil http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/comment-page-1/#comment-51659 Neil Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:04:11 +0000 http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=180#comment-51659 > ‘trommelremmen’ (I don’t know the english word, but the breaking is at the axle of the wheel). babalfish (altavista) translates it as "drum brakes", which is what your description sounded like. Though you do get straight forward drum brake, a back pedal brake (seemed to be called coaster brakes these days :( ), or roller brakes (not sure exactly what these are). By handcalling, I assume you mean using your mobile phone. BTW - Some of the Amsterdam cycle lanes appear just as bad as ones in UK i.e. pass the door zone, or too narrow etc (sorry can't find the URL of the recent clip I saw showing some bad expamples). Is the main safety feature just the shear numbers of cyclists and therefore expectation from motorists that cyclists will be around? > ‘trommelremmen’ (I don’t know the english word, but the breaking is at the axle of the wheel).

babalfish (altavista) translates it as “drum brakes”, which is what your description sounded like. Though you do get straight forward drum brake, a back pedal brake (seemed to be called coaster brakes these days :( ), or roller brakes (not sure exactly what these are).

By handcalling, I assume you mean using your mobile phone.

BTW - Some of the Amsterdam cycle lanes appear just as bad as ones in UK i.e. pass the door zone, or too narrow etc (sorry can’t find the URL of the recent clip I saw showing some bad expamples). Is the main safety feature just the shear numbers of cyclists and therefore expectation from motorists that cyclists will be around?

]]> By: Bodosan http://clevercycles.com/2007/04/21/selling-biking-to-the-dutch/comment-page-1/#comment-51643 Bodosan Fri, 15 Jun 2007 04:52:25 +0000 http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=180#comment-51643 I stumbled upon (o; your blog, but I do often search for bicycle related stories (the picture story you point out at http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/ I greatly enjoyed; the video I already knew, but is still nice to watch). I'm not a carhater as such, but I don't have a driverslicense so biking is my natural means of transport (within 15 kilometers). When distances are farther I take the bus or a train. In Amsterdam where I live riding a bike is almost as fast as a car and parking is a lot! easier. Imo a bike could do very well in most cities. In Amsterdam more than 40 % of all traficmovements are by bicycle and there is some pressure in this respect (in particular in the centre) to use a bicycle because of rising parkingfees. We don't have broad lanes and the centre is cut through with a lot of canals. In these circumstances a car is often trapped (when others are loading/unloading), but on a bicycle you can pass. Cold weather is not a real problem because the bicycling keeps you quite warm. In this time of year I'm a littke sweaty when arriving at work, but I cool of quickly. I have two bikes: a dutch Gazelle is my main bike. It's strong, heavy and made from lugged iron tubes. It has a Sturmey Archer classic gearhub with 5 positions and breaks we call 'trommelremmen' (I don't know the english word, but the breaking is at the axle of the wheel). My other bike is a Giant aluminum bike with a derailleur. Helmets are not common; sometimes little children are seen wearing them, but most don't. I think the difference with helmet advocating opinions is in the perception of safety. We don't see bicycle riding a something unsafe, so why would you wear a helmet? In Germany handcalling on a bike is prohibited, but in the Netherlands, although there is a discussion about this, a certain consensus says that there aren't many accidents with handcalling bikers, so let them do so. I personally am aganst handcalling on a bike. I think people concentrate to much on the call and forget to watch out. But we do tend to do a lot on our bikes besides biclycling (o;. One odd thing is the word 'fiets' we use, because there is no reference in any other language (although some suggest a link with the french word for speed 'vitesse'). Other European langages use a form of cycle (german 'fahrrad' or french 'bicyclette' for instance). I stumbled upon (o; your blog, but I do often search for bicycle related stories (the picture story you point out at http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/ I greatly enjoyed; the video I already knew, but is still nice to watch). I’m not a carhater as such, but I don’t have a driverslicense so biking is my natural means of transport (within 15 kilometers). When distances are farther I take the bus or a train. In Amsterdam where I live riding a bike is almost as fast as a car and parking is a lot! easier. Imo a bike could do very well in most cities. In Amsterdam more than 40 % of all traficmovements are by bicycle and there is some pressure in this respect (in particular in the centre) to use a bicycle because of rising parkingfees. We don’t have broad lanes and the centre is cut through with a lot of canals. In these circumstances a car is often trapped (when others are loading/unloading), but on a bicycle you can pass. Cold weather is not a real problem because the bicycling keeps you quite warm. In this time of year I’m a littke sweaty when arriving at work, but I cool of quickly. I have two bikes: a dutch Gazelle is my main bike. It’s strong, heavy and made from lugged iron tubes. It has a Sturmey Archer classic gearhub with 5 positions and breaks we call ‘trommelremmen’ (I don’t know the english word, but the breaking is at the axle of the wheel). My other bike is a Giant aluminum bike with a derailleur. Helmets are not common; sometimes little children are seen wearing them, but most don’t. I think the difference with helmet advocating opinions is in the perception of safety. We don’t see bicycle riding a something unsafe, so why would you wear a helmet? In Germany handcalling on a bike is prohibited, but in the Netherlands, although there is a discussion about this, a certain consensus says that there aren’t many accidents with handcalling bikers, so let them do so. I personally am aganst handcalling on a bike. I think people concentrate to much on the call and forget to watch out. But we do tend to do a lot on our bikes besides biclycling (o;. One odd thing is the word ‘fiets’ we use, because there is no reference in any other language (although some suggest a link with the french word for speed ‘vitesse’). Other European langages use a form of cycle (german ‘fahrrad’ or french ‘bicyclette’ for instance).

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