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	<title>Comments on: Dutchness</title>
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		<title>By: Eli</title>
		<link>http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/comment-page-3/#comment-341030</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 May 2010 16:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/#comment-341030</guid>
		<description>Just found this post and was utterly baffled, in the early comments, why anyone would consider an inquiry as to the weight of the cycle inappropriate. When I&#039;m reading about bicycles, it&#039;s one of the first things I want to know. My commute combines bicycling with public transit; here in the Twin Cities (MN) where I live, that requires lifting the bike onto or into a rack. I&#039;m no Olive Oyl, but I&#039;m no post-spinach Popeye, either; I have to know how much a bike weighs so I know if I&#039;m going to be able to put it on the rack. You compare the question to &quot;asking a beautiful, sensible, easygoing person the dimensions of their sex organs&quot;, but you don&#039;t have to heft those sex organs onto a bus bike rack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just found this post and was utterly baffled, in the early comments, why anyone would consider an inquiry as to the weight of the cycle inappropriate. When I&#8217;m reading about bicycles, it&#8217;s one of the first things I want to know. My commute combines bicycling with public transit; here in the Twin Cities (MN) where I live, that requires lifting the bike onto or into a rack. I&#8217;m no Olive Oyl, but I&#8217;m no post-spinach Popeye, either; I have to know how much a bike weighs so I know if I&#8217;m going to be able to put it on the rack. You compare the question to &#8220;asking a beautiful, sensible, easygoing person the dimensions of their sex organs&#8221;, but you don&#8217;t have to heft those sex organs onto a bus bike rack.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd (admin)</title>
		<link>http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/comment-page-3/#comment-338904</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd (admin)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/#comment-338904</guid>
		<description>Hi Wytze - probably this comment was meant for the &quot;Austin On Two Wheels&quot; blog where this confusing &quot;hybrid geometry that yields the sit up and beg riding position&quot; comment was made, but since that blog links here with that remark, let me try to clarify.

Your very attractive design appears to differ ergonomically from a classic Omafiets or similarly traditional model not in the adjustment range of the handlebars, but in the relatively steep seat tube angle. It appears to be, like nearly all &quot;sport and fitness&quot; bikes made today, in the neighborhood of 73 degrees, instead of in the 65-68 degree range characteristic of classic Dutch city/utility bikes. 

This steep seat angle, paired with bars high and close, is what I call here the &quot;comfort/cruiser&quot; position, and criticize as sort of a disaster. It isn&#039;t so much about where your arms are, but about the mean angle of torso and legs, which is too shallow to encourage effective use of the buttocks. People tend to lean or bob forward in partial compensation as they pedal such bikes with anything greater than walking intensity, such as into wind or uphill. 

This lean, together with close hands, results in a praying-mantis bend of elbow and wrist also characteristic of little poodles sitting up and begging for a piece of bacon: &quot;sit up and beg.&quot; Steep seat angles tend to encourage either too low a saddle for proper leg extension, or else make it challenging to place a foot down for stability at stops while remaining in the saddle.

Traditional Dutch bikes, in contrast, have the pedals far enough forward of the pelvis that the buttocks get good use even while the rider remains completely upright. I think the various &quot;foot forward&quot; marketing concepts tend to take this basically sound idea just a little too far for the sake of clear storytelling.

The term &quot;hybrid&quot; only confuses things, because in north america it describes something like what is called &quot;trekking&quot; in europe: basically a rigid mountain bike with 622 wheels and city tires. In the simple meaning of &quot;mixed&quot; I&#039;d say your bike is an uneasy mix of old classic/traditional city handlebar position and the newer orthodoxy of steep seat angle. We fit many of these setback pins to rectify this situation: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/1429704016/

I do like quick-adjust handlebars for just the reasons you cite. Quick-adjust seat angle: now that would be something!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Wytze &#8211; probably this comment was meant for the &#8220;Austin On Two Wheels&#8221; blog where this confusing &#8220;hybrid geometry that yields the sit up and beg riding position&#8221; comment was made, but since that blog links here with that remark, let me try to clarify.</p>
<p>Your very attractive design appears to differ ergonomically from a classic Omafiets or similarly traditional model not in the adjustment range of the handlebars, but in the relatively steep seat tube angle. It appears to be, like nearly all &#8220;sport and fitness&#8221; bikes made today, in the neighborhood of 73 degrees, instead of in the 65-68 degree range characteristic of classic Dutch city/utility bikes. </p>
<p>This steep seat angle, paired with bars high and close, is what I call here the &#8220;comfort/cruiser&#8221; position, and criticize as sort of a disaster. It isn&#8217;t so much about where your arms are, but about the mean angle of torso and legs, which is too shallow to encourage effective use of the buttocks. People tend to lean or bob forward in partial compensation as they pedal such bikes with anything greater than walking intensity, such as into wind or uphill. </p>
<p>This lean, together with close hands, results in a praying-mantis bend of elbow and wrist also characteristic of little poodles sitting up and begging for a piece of bacon: &#8220;sit up and beg.&#8221; Steep seat angles tend to encourage either too low a saddle for proper leg extension, or else make it challenging to place a foot down for stability at stops while remaining in the saddle.</p>
<p>Traditional Dutch bikes, in contrast, have the pedals far enough forward of the pelvis that the buttocks get good use even while the rider remains completely upright. I think the various &#8220;foot forward&#8221; marketing concepts tend to take this basically sound idea just a little too far for the sake of clear storytelling.</p>
<p>The term &#8220;hybrid&#8221; only confuses things, because in north america it describes something like what is called &#8220;trekking&#8221; in europe: basically a rigid mountain bike with 622 wheels and city tires. In the simple meaning of &#8220;mixed&#8221; I&#8217;d say your bike is an uneasy mix of old classic/traditional city handlebar position and the newer orthodoxy of steep seat angle. We fit many of these setback pins to rectify this situation: <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/1429704016/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/1429704016/</a></p>
<p>I do like quick-adjust handlebars for just the reasons you cite. Quick-adjust seat angle: now that would be something!</p>
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		<title>By: Wytze</title>
		<link>http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/comment-page-3/#comment-338901</link>
		<dc:creator>Wytze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/#comment-338901</guid>
		<description>Quote:

&quot;Cannondale enters city bike fray with Dutchess concept bike &#124; Austin On Two Wheels Says: November 17th, 2009 at 13:14

[...] not all good. Cannondale kept the hybrid geometry that yields the sit up and beg riding position instead of the highly comfortable fully upright, arms at the side position of a true Dutch bike. [...]

end quote

As the designer of the Cannondale Dutchess I can inform you this is not true. The Dutchess has adjustable handlebars that allow a riding position from The fully upright position all the way to a sportive MTB-like position. 
If you ask me easy, fast adjustable handlebars (preferably operated while riding) is the ultimate solution. Especially for people that really use bicycles as their daily transport, those nasty country roads against the wind can be killing in an upright position. And at busy intersections a upright position that allows you the 360 degrees of sight is literally vital</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quote:</p>
<p>&#8220;Cannondale enters city bike fray with Dutchess concept bike | Austin On Two Wheels Says: November 17th, 2009 at 13:14</p>
<p>[...] not all good. Cannondale kept the hybrid geometry that yields the sit up and beg riding position instead of the highly comfortable fully upright, arms at the side position of a true Dutch bike. [...]</p>
<p>end quote</p>
<p>As the designer of the Cannondale Dutchess I can inform you this is not true. The Dutchess has adjustable handlebars that allow a riding position from The fully upright position all the way to a sportive <span class="caps">MTB</span>-like position. <br />
If you ask me easy, fast adjustable handlebars (preferably operated while riding) is the ultimate solution. Especially for people that really use bicycles as their daily transport, those nasty country roads against the wind can be killing in an upright position. And at busy intersections a upright position that allows you the 360 degrees of sight is literally vital</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/comment-page-3/#comment-338890</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 00:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/#comment-338890</guid>
		<description>I was just coming back to this post to look at the little stick diagrams, and got caught up in reading all the comments again, and I thought I&#039;d just chime in on a few things regarding differences in frame styles, as I&#039;ve now spent some time on both a real Dutch bike (Batavus Old Dutch), an Electra Amsterdam, an old Raleigh Sports, and an old-ish Raleigh Roadster. 

I can relate to Todd&#039;s description of the &quot;initial wobbles&quot; of riding a Dutch bike, as even after spending a year on the Electra Amsterdam (which is somewhere in-between the Townie and the typical Dutch geometry), the geometry of the Batavus was so different, it took me a few times before I was really comfortable mounting the bike (never fell over or anything, but it was tenuous). Both the Batavus and the Electra are 3 speeds, and I have ridden the Electra all over Portland, SE, NE, Downtown, NW, and the Batavus went all over SE and downtown, and I&#039;ve never felt like I really *needed* more than 3 speeds. The only time the upright posture isn&#039;t fantastic is when it&#039;s really windy, other than that, I love riding that way. It offers so much flexibility, since your weight isn&#039;t resting on your hands - it&#039;s easy to ride with one hand for long distances, do other things while you&#039;re riding, etc.

The Raleigh Sports is definitely much closer to the touring position, I&#039;d say (and I think originally it was meant as a touring bike, primarily). It has many of the amenities mentioned about the Dutch bikes (internal gears, full chain case, dynamo hub, rear rack, etc), and has a 4-speed hub, which is supposedly geared the same as Sturmey Archer&#039;s 3-speed AW hubs, with one lower gear. It&#039;s an extremely solid bike, and is a bit more maneuverable than the Dutch Bikes, the slightly wider range in the hub is really nice, and it is a little better for climbing hills - but, as compared to the Dutch bikes, it puts much more pressure on your hands, and the smaller wheels and wheelbase make it definitely less-suited for carrying things. Still fine for a bag of groceries, cat food, that kind of thing, but you&#039;re not going to carry your kid plus three days of groceries like you might on an Omafiets.

The Raleigh Roadster is a stepthrough that looks similar to the Omafiets, and has a more upright posture than the Sports, but is still not quite the totally upright position of the Dutch bikes. It has 28&quot; wheels, similar to the Dutch Bikes (and opposed to the 26&quot; on the Sports).

All four of these bikes have a very different feel to them, are very enjoyable to ride for different reasons, and have different advantages and dis-advantages (well, the main advantage of the Electra Amsterdam over any of them is the price, but quality suffers also - well-illustrating Todd&#039;s point that the WorkCycles bikes they sell are not equivalent in functionality to a cheap Chinese bike, trust me). That all being said, if I was going to have just one bicycle for all of my trips, it would definitely be a Dutch bike, and a *real* Dutch bike (WorkCycles, Gazelle, Batavus, etc).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just coming back to this post to look at the little stick diagrams, and got caught up in reading all the comments again, and I thought I&#8217;d just chime in on a few things regarding differences in frame styles, as I&#8217;ve now spent some time on both a real Dutch bike (Batavus Old Dutch), an Electra Amsterdam, an old Raleigh Sports, and an old-ish Raleigh Roadster. </p>
<p>I can relate to Todd&#8217;s description of the &#8220;initial wobbles&#8221; of riding a Dutch bike, as even after spending a year on the Electra Amsterdam (which is somewhere in-between the Townie and the typical Dutch geometry), the geometry of the Batavus was so different, it took me a few times before I was really comfortable mounting the bike (never fell over or anything, but it was tenuous). Both the Batavus and the Electra are 3 speeds, and I have ridden the Electra all over Portland, <span class="caps">SE, NE,</span> Downtown, <span class="caps">NW, </span>and the Batavus went all over SE and downtown, and I&#8217;ve never felt like I really <strong>needed</strong> more than 3 speeds. The only time the upright posture isn&#8217;t fantastic is when it&#8217;s really windy, other than that, I love riding that way. It offers so much flexibility, since your weight isn&#8217;t resting on your hands &#8211; it&#8217;s easy to ride with one hand for long distances, do other things while you&#8217;re riding, etc.</p>
<p>The Raleigh Sports is definitely much closer to the touring position, I&#8217;d say (and I think originally it was meant as a touring bike, primarily). It has many of the amenities mentioned about the Dutch bikes (internal gears, full chain case, dynamo hub, rear rack, etc), and has a 4-speed hub, which is supposedly geared the same as Sturmey Archer&#8217;s 3-speed AW hubs, with one lower gear. It&#8217;s an extremely solid bike, and is a bit more maneuverable than the Dutch Bikes, the slightly wider range in the hub is really nice, and it is a little better for climbing hills &#8211; but, as compared to the Dutch bikes, it puts much more pressure on your hands, and the smaller wheels and wheelbase make it definitely less-suited for carrying things. Still fine for a bag of groceries, cat food, that kind of thing, but you&#8217;re not going to carry your kid plus three days of groceries like you might on an Omafiets.</p>
<p>The Raleigh Roadster is a stepthrough that looks similar to the Omafiets, and has a more upright posture than the Sports, but is still not quite the totally upright position of the Dutch bikes. It has 28&#8243; wheels, similar to the Dutch Bikes (and opposed to the 26&#8243; on the Sports).</p>
<p>All four of these bikes have a very different feel to them, are very enjoyable to ride for different reasons, and have different advantages and dis-advantages (well, the main advantage of the Electra Amsterdam over any of them is the price, but quality suffers also &#8211; well-illustrating Todd&#8217;s point that the WorkCycles bikes they sell are not equivalent in functionality to a cheap Chinese bike, trust me). That all being said, if I was going to have just one bicycle for all of my trips, it would definitely be a Dutch bike, and a <strong>real</strong> Dutch bike (WorkCycles, Gazelle, Batavus, etc).</p>
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		<title>By: Clever Cycles &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Who rides a WorkCycles city bike?</title>
		<link>http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/comment-page-3/#comment-337743</link>
		<dc:creator>Clever Cycles &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Who rides a WorkCycles city bike?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/#comment-337743</guid>
		<description>[...] This is Zuzana on her Oma, our most popular bike in this range. Its exceptionally tall head tube permits mounting of a very large basket on the &#8220;Pickup&#8221; rack fixed to the frame up front, without the bars colliding with the basket. Zuz reports that she rides her Oma faster, further, and more often than the less substantial Electra Amsterdam &#8220;Classic&#8221; that first whet her appetite for Dutch-style riding. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This is Zuzana on her Oma, our most popular bike in this range. Its exceptionally tall head tube permits mounting of a very large basket on the &#8220;Pickup&#8221; rack fixed to the frame up front, without the bars colliding with the basket. Zuz reports that she rides her Oma faster, further, and more often than the less substantial Electra Amsterdam &#8220;Classic&#8221; that first whet her appetite for Dutch-style riding. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: drooderfiets</title>
		<link>http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/comment-page-3/#comment-337741</link>
		<dc:creator>drooderfiets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/#comment-337741</guid>
		<description>As A dutch bike I can&#039;t but confirm that the position on a dutch bike is very very confortable. The saddle is important though. When you do more than an hour of bicycle, if you don&#039;t have a smooth enough saddle, your bump starts to hurt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As A dutch bike I can&#8217;t but confirm that the position on a dutch bike is very very confortable. The saddle is important though. When you do more than an hour of bicycle, if you don&#8217;t have a smooth enough saddle, your bump starts to hurt.</p>
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		<title>By: Cannondale enters city bike fray with Dutchess concept bike &#124; Austin On Two Wheels</title>
		<link>http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/comment-page-3/#comment-337640</link>
		<dc:creator>Cannondale enters city bike fray with Dutchess concept bike &#124; Austin On Two Wheels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/#comment-337640</guid>
		<description>[...] not all good. Cannondale kept the hybrid geometry that yields the sit up and beg riding position instead of the highly comfortable fully upright, arms at the side position of a true Dutch bike. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] not all good. Cannondale kept the hybrid geometry that yields the sit up and beg riding position instead of the highly comfortable fully upright, arms at the side position of a true Dutch bike. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Enrique</title>
		<link>http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/comment-page-2/#comment-333058</link>
		<dc:creator>Enrique</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 03:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/#comment-333058</guid>
		<description>Just bought a 3 speed dutch style bike and I LOVE IT! Sitting upright is so much safer and dignified, not to mention comfortable.

Some hills are a little slow going sometimes but commuting about 10 miles each way in NYC I can tell you there is still no hill I haven&#039;t conquered.

I have a road bike, I have a MTB, and now with my dutch cruiser unless I plan on attempting a long distance tour or going off road, my road bike and MTB will only gather dust.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just bought a 3 speed dutch style bike and I <span class="caps">LOVE</span> IT! Sitting upright is so much safer and dignified, not to mention comfortable.</p>
<p>Some hills are a little slow going sometimes but commuting about 10 miles each way in <span class="caps">NYC</span> I can tell you there is still no hill I haven&#8217;t conquered.</p>
<p>I have a road bike, I have a <span class="caps">MTB, </span>and now with my dutch cruiser unless I plan on attempting a long distance tour or going off road, my road bike and <span class="caps">MTB </span>will only gather dust.</p>
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		<title>By: Human_Amplifier</title>
		<link>http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/comment-page-2/#comment-331926</link>
		<dc:creator>Human_Amplifier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/#comment-331926</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that link Marc. Always looking for good info to convince fellow Brits that upright is best for everyday cycling. Mark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that link Marc. Always looking for good info to convince fellow Brits that upright is best for everyday cycling. Mark</p>
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		<title>By: amsterdamize</title>
		<link>http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/comment-page-2/#comment-331913</link>
		<dc:creator>amsterdamize</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 13:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clevercycles.com/2007/06/26/dutchness/#comment-331913</guid>
		<description>Good to see you here too, Mark :)

@George, concerning which riding position would be better or least harmful, I recommend you read &lt;a href=&quot;http://amsterdamize.com/2008/09/23/take-it-from-doc/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt; from a while ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good to see you here too, Mark :)</p>
<p>@George, concerning which riding position would be better or least harmful, I recommend you read <a href="http://amsterdamize.com/2008/09/23/take-it-from-doc/" rel="nofollow">this article</a> from a while ago.</p>
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